00;58;37;11 – 00;58;56;13
Synergee
Welcome Synergee listeners. Today we are so honored to welcome Doctor Stephanie Venn-Watson, a veterinarian, epidemiologist and serial entrepreneur whose work bridges animal and human longevity science. Doctor Venn-Watson has led research with the CDC, World Health Organization, Department of Defense and DARPA.
00;58;56;15 – 00;59;03;15
Synergee
Authored over 60 peer reviewed publications and is the lead inventor on more than 40 patents.
00;59;03;22 – 00;59;11;23
Synergee
She’s also the scientist behind the discovery of C15 and the founder of Fatty 15 Reshaping How We Think About Nutrition at the cellular level.
00;59;11;25 – 00;59;25;09
Synergee
This conversation was eye opening, it was inspiring, and it was deeply grounding. And we have no doubt that you’re going to feel the same as you listen in. So tune in. We can’t wait to get feedback. And at the end there’ll be a special surprise.
00;59;25;14 – 00;59;27;09
Dr. Venn-Watson
Kelly. Lori. Wonderful to be here.
00;59;27;09 – 00;59;36;20
Synergee
We’re excited that you took time out of your schedule for us and for our listeners. So thank you. Thank you for your work, and I can’t wait for you to begin to share that. So listen, your background is so incredible. So let’s start there. What is your story? Give us a little context behind this discussion today.
00;59;46;01 – 01;00;18;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
Sure. Unexpected discovery right? Unexpected to be here. If I went back ten years, ten years ago. So I am a veterinary epidemiologist. I was working for a World Health Organization, CDC, helping to set up disease surveillance systems all over the world. And then about 24, just to date myself, right? 24 years ago, was recruited by the Navy, to help, to come on, come in and help continually improve the health and welfare of the Navy’s dolphins.
01;00;18;24 – 01;00;20;28
Dr. Venn-Watson
And, you know, which is funny because
01;00;21;06 – 01;00;42;07
Dr. Venn-Watson
I, you know, I don’t know how to swim. I’m terrified of water. And so the last place I thought I’d be was working with dolphins. So. But I thought it would be, you know, great to do for a couple of years. And, the Navy, you know, has cared for this, wonderful, sustained population of about 800 bottlenose dolphins, for over 60 years.
01;00;43;24 – 01;01;05;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
They live in San Diego Bay, which is incredible. Go out in the open ocean every day and every day they choose to come back, which is important for me, you know, from a veterinarian. And, the Navy takes really good care of these dolphins. If you look at dolphins in the wild, they typically live to about 20 years.
01;01;05;01 – 01;01;11;28
Dr. Venn-Watson
And dolphins in the Navy are routinely living 40 to 50 years and two dolphins this past year turned 60 years old. So it’s already impressive for us. And so we did, we, the team, we, over a period of about ten years, we were able to really dive into the massive treasure trove of data, behind these animals.
01;01;31;19 – 01;01;52;22
Dr. Venn-Watson
All because the Navy takes great care of them. So if you could imagine with your patient populations, if you had CBC and cams, you know, 40 different variables measured on them routinely every quarter of their entire lives. Oh, what you’d be able to do with that information? This is now what functional wellness clinics are doing increasingly. So we’re catching up to the dolphin, medicine regimen and what we found, thanks to those data, was that about 1 in 3 older dolphins were developing a cluster of conditions, aging associated conditions like high cholesterol, chronic inflammation, fatty liver disease, and even the full suite of changes consistent with Alzheimer’s. So that allowed us to go in and say, I’m using advanced metabolomics to look at thousands of small molecules present in their archived serum, but also they’re all fish diet.
01;02;30;12 – 01;02;35;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
To see which small molecules predicted the healthiest aging dolphins.
01;02;35;16 – 01;02;52;09
Dr. Venn-Watson
And that’s where this wonderful gift, discovery, and gifted discovery came in which we found that C15, this odd chain of saturated fat, was the top predictor of the healthiest aging dolphins. And off off the adventure started. That was ten years ago.
01;02;52;14 – 01;02;57;15
Synergee
Well, first of all, I had no idea that dolphins actually had, and correct me if I’m wrong, but they actually have signs of what you just said. Metabolic syndrome. Yes, we as humans have. Like that blew me away. Maybe other people listening to this already knew that, but I was actually it really took me back.
01;03;15;04 – 01;03;21;12
Dr. Venn-Watson
And Lori, when we started seeing this and it was exactly that, so smart, you know, it’s metabolic syndrome.
01;03;21;12 – 01;03;40;19
Dr. Venn-Watson
Like it’s how you do it. You know, they had insulin resistance, high glucose, all the pieces and parts. And that allowed us to reach out to experts in the field in human medicine to say, like, hey, we’re finding this in dolphins. So the first step we did was reach out to the experts on the human side to say, hey, we’re seeing this in the Dolphins.
01;03;40;21 – 01;03;43;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
What are your thoughts on how we can help the dolphins?
01;03;44;01 – 01;04;00;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
And that resulted in the experts saying, what are you talking about? The dolphins are not the same. The same surprise. And then we were able to work together to help the dolphins in their wonderful way that turned right back around and helped us do so. Incredible. Just incredible.
01;04;00;28 – 01;04;23;17
Synergee
So from you discovering this and it was probably a conglomerate of data that was placed together like what happened from there because it’s a very unique situation. It’s what we want more of. We want more organizations and teams of researchers and people seeing things to work together. But that is not common to happen, unfortunately.
01;04;23;19 – 01;04;37;07
Synergee
So how did you get that buy-in and what did you do differently that made them want to help?
01;04;37;14 – 01;04;54;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
It’s a great question. Selfishly, we have the dolphin card. So,you know, when you’re helping dolphins, and, it’s a lot easier to really be able to get experts in the field. And it’s experts in nutrition, experts in, you know, ended up bringing in experts and longevity experts in, heart health, metabolic health and endocrinology, the liver disease.
01;04;54;29 – 01;05;16;23
Dr. Venn-Watson
And we were and then we’re, it’s wonderful. We’re here in San Diego. So we have this hub, even locally, of experts in biotechnology and medicine, where we were able to do exactly that, come together. And we had meetings where it was solely focused on how we can bring our expertise together to help the dolphins. Right.
01;05;16;23 – 01;05;24;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
And like, how fantastic is that? So then it really enabled us, like you said, when you cross, disciplines and you come together, you have a multidisciplinary approach, you suddenly get perspectives and ideas together that you never would have come up with. You know, with if you had if we had just stayed, like in the dolphin Veterinary Lane.
01;05;40;03 – 01;05;52;00
Dr. Venn-Watson
So it was a perfect example of that. Yeah. And what advancements in medicine would happen to be if we did more of that. So I just want to reiterate that because unfortunately, due to, I’m sure, a multitude of different reasons that we could probably spend a whole podcast talking about that doesn’t happen. But this did.
01;06;00;18 – 01;06;20;06
Synergee
And it clearly, it clearly shows how, how much, benefit there was from those putting price down, whatever it was. Right? Putting pride down, putting priority to this and coming together and being willing to share what they knew. So that’s really cool. So what exactly is C15?
01;06;20;09 – 01;06;26;07
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right. So it is an audio chain saturated fatty acid. So a big surprise.
01;06;26;10 – 01;06;38;27
Dr. Venn-Watson
That was another surprise was that we were seeing what was beneficial was a dietary saturated fat that was doing the opposite of everything we’ve been told about saturated fats. Right. So,
01;06;38;29 – 01;06;50;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
I had never heard of C15, when C15 started popping up in these studies. And then we gave dolphins with a higher amount of C15 in their fish, a higher C15 diet.
01;06;50;25 – 01;07;10;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
And they got better. Then we leaned in and said, wait, what? What is this? What is this fatty acid? So it’s, it’s in our chain, saturated fat. It has 16 carbons, which is or sorry, 15 carbons, which is why it’s called C15. It’s an odd chain because it has an odd number of carbons.
01;07;10;18 – 01;07;15;04
Dr. Venn-Watson
So we can get that with the geeky chemistry part out of the way.
01;07;15;06 – 01;07;37;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
And it ends up that when we look at saturated fats that even today, all dietary saturated fats are still being clumped into one singular category. The new dietary guidelines that came out, very different than they have been in the past, and they’re definitely giving some credence to healthy fats.
01;07;37;08 – 01;07;42;12
Dr. Venn-Watson
Surprisingly, there’s they still are not separating out these good versus bad,
01;07;42;18 – 01;08;12;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
despite the fact that it is now unquestionable. Thanks to, you know, over 100 peer reviewed studies showing that there is a clear difference between, odd and even chain saturated fats. They have completely opposite effects where these are chain fats, especially C15 has its anti-inflammatory, cell stabilizing mitochondrial repair results in higher levels of C15, in dolphins and in humans.
01;08;12;24 – 01;08;29;12
Dr. Venn-Watson
Now, associated with a lower risk of developing type two diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and others, higher levels of even chain saturated fats like C16, C offset higher risk of developing type two diabetes,
01;08;29;14 – 01;08;45;21
Dr. Venn-Watson
cardiovascular disease impairs mitochondrial function, and is pro-inflammatory. So it is shocking how nature can take one carbon and have completely different effects. But it’s, you know, thanks to science that’s allowing us to, to learn and adapt.
01;08;45;28 – 01;08;54;14
Synergee
Yeah. So how do we bridge the gap from dolphins, those joyous little creatures that everybody wants to help over to humans?
01;08;54;16 – 01;09;01;00
Synergee
Right. How do we start looking at the human effects of lack of C15 and how did that evolve?
01;09;01;00 – 01;09;10;16
Dr. Venn-Watson
right. So ended up crushing Kelly. So ended up there was a parallel, accidental experiment happening in both dolphins and humans at the same time.
01;09;10;16 – 01;09;12;19
Dr. Venn-Watson
So the dolphins for a long time
01;09;12;19 – 01;09;26;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
had been fed a fish called ula con fish. And they were really heavy in fats. They had so much fat in them that you could dry a ULA kind and put a wick in it, and it could be a candle.
01;09;26;16 – 01;09;37;00
Dr. Venn-Watson
You would call them candle fish. So that fishery died out, resulting in some of the dolphins getting increasing amounts of fish with no C15 in it.
01;09;37;02 – 01;09;46;27
Dr. Venn-Watson
So over. That’s why over a decade we started seeing these clusters metabolic syndrome show up as some dolphins were getting less and less C 15.
01;09;47;00 – 01;10;10;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
The same experiment has played out in the US in which our primary source of C 15 is dairy fat. And as we’ve taken whole dairy fat out of our diets and then, you know, starting with adults, and children and then really moving to the pediatric younger and younger space, especially in the 1990s, we’ve decreased our intake of C 15.
01;10;10;29 – 01;10;29;20
Dr. Venn-Watson
Our C 15 levels have been declining. And so we’re seeing that not just higher levels are associated with that, a lower risk we’re seeing now, the question is, as we’ve been taking in less C 15, have we increased the risk of type two diabetes, fatty liver disease
01;10;29;23 – 01;10;42;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
and heart disease, especially among younger and younger people? So we published last year detailed pathophysiology of a nutritional deficiency syndrome called cellular fragility syndrome.
01;10;42;06 – 01;10;59;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
That was just for better or worse, it has been repeated, and re verified by a second team this last year. So it really seems like we may have induced a new deficiency syndrome through these changes in dairy fat.
01;10;59;19 – 01;11;09;22
Synergee
Okay. So Lori and I use the body as a way of measuring body composition and our practices. And one of the measurements on there is a phase angle. Are you familiar with the phase angle? Okay.
01;11;10;19 – 01;11;12;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
Yes, it’s a great measurement.
01;11;12;09 – 01;11;19;18
Synergee
Curious to know how you guys measured cellular fragility and can you what are the symptoms someone would have?
01;11;19;18 – 01;11;25;03
Synergee
How would they show up on their lab testing and maybe their phase angle, like what would you see.
01;11;25;06 – 01;11;52;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
so C15 does a lot of things. One of its core roles is as a stable, anti-inflammatory, fatty acid that has no double bonds in it. It is particularly resistant to attack by oxygen. So, resistant to lipid oxidation. This is important because C15 integrates into our cell membranes. Right. And our cell membranes are made out of fatty acids.
01;11;52;26 – 01;12;06;10
Dr. Venn-Watson
The less, the fewer the double bonds in a fatty acid in the cell membrane, the stronger that cell membrane is resistant against lipid oxidation.
01;12;06;13 – 01;12;26;02
Dr. Venn-Watson
There’s a theory called the cell membrane pacemaker theory of aging that was introduced by AJ Holbert in 2005. And what he showed was that the more stable the fatty acids in the cell membrane, the lower the systemic lipid oxidation and the longer it dictated how long a species lifespan was.
01;12;26;04 – 01;12;47;06
Synergee
Why does a human live longer than a mouse, right? So it’s like it’s a true evolutionary enabler of longevity. So this all gets back to the phase angle, right? So if the stronger your cell membranes then that helps feed into these measurements if you can use them because you have the fancy schmancy good stuff.
01;12;47;09 – 01;12;54;13
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right with you for, for dolphins because we couldn’t quite give them that test.
01;12;54;15 – 01;13;16;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
For the dolphins. It is one of the easiest cells to detect in our red blood cells. So when red blood cells become fragile. And for the dolphins, it was, you know, C 15 levels, dietary levels were going down. They have. And their cell membranes, those cell membranes became more fragile. And the ones we could most readily see were more fragile red blood cells.
01;13;16;08 – 01;13;28;20
Dr. Venn-Watson
So what we saw as veterinarians on the blood panel was, we saw, decreasing hemoglobin. We saw an increasing red blood cell distribution with so RW
01;13;28;23 – 01;13;45;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
and right. And so RW ends up being a really important biomarker that has emerged. And throughout the literature, it’s one of the strongest biomarkers of our biological aging rate. So it feeds into what’s called the aging cell Fino.
01;13;45;26 – 01;14;03;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
And so now we’re understanding why that RW is such an important measurement. It’s a measurement of our cellular stability, not just a red blood cell, but it gets to be a little flag to let us know how the rest of our body is doing with, how fragile or strong our cells are.
01;14;03;23 – 01;14;20;06
Synergee
So for our listeners, you’re going to see that show up on your CBC, your complete blood count that your doctor or health care provider may do once a year when you go in for your annual visit. They’re measuring that typically. So that’s something that you can track and train for yourself over time to see what way is that going?
01;14;20;11 – 01;14;20;22
Synergee
Right.
01;14;20;27 – 01;14;41;10
Synergee
But often is one that is just glanced over, much like an CHC or MCV, like, oh, it’s okay. Right. It’s okay. That’s not that’s not a big deal. Is there a particular reference range and optimal range that you specifically speak to, like in, in some of your studies?
01;14;41;12 – 01;15;09;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
We’re always looking at trends Lori. So I actually I guess you I’m scared. So yeah embarrassing I can’t but I can tell you though, as far as you will see that it will pop up as abnormal on. And so just using your typical ranges that you have in the tests. So sometimes the first thing you’re going to see even before declining hemoglobin is an increasing red blood cell distribution with RTW.
01;15;09;03 – 01;15;26;25
Synergee
For the people listening, it’s a measurement of how variable the variability in the size of the red blood cells. So they should be stable. They should be relatively stable in size. Therefore a low RTW. When our cells start getting fragile and falling apart then we have to make new ones.
01;15;26;25 – 01;15;30;04
Synergee
So you ended up with a bunch of different sized red blood cells.
01;15;30;04 – 01;15;47;22
Dr. Venn-Watson
It means that our cells are not stable. And that results in a higher RW. I was giving a talk just a few months ago, and someone in the audience asked, okay, so what would I see if I had cellular fragility syndrome? What would I see? And if I went on a supplement, what would I expect to see?
01;15;47;22 – 01;16;04;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
And I said, well, you would probably see lower red, so maybe a low hemoglobin. And as you go on it, you would see those come back or you would see that art. Sorry high RW it’s where your RW drop and your hemoglobin go up. And then she came up to me after she showed me her bloodwork.
01;16;04;03 – 01;16;17;05
Dr. Venn-Watson
She’s like that’s exactly what happened with me. I’ve been on fatty 15 for six months and that’s exactly the right thing. So it’s your that is the signal of cellular fragility. But then there’s also all the obviously the downstream effects
01;16;17;11 – 01;16;28;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
with, that we’re seeing with low C15. And then really clinically meaningful benefits, on the back end from beyond just the cellular fragility component,
01;16;28;17 – 01;16;32;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
So I love that we can see that happen on just a CBC.
01;16;32;06 – 01;16;50;15
Synergee
Right? It’s not a fancy test. I know in years past, I was doing some red blood cell analysis, fatty acid analysis to Kennedy, Kruger, and C15 was actually on. I went back to see what’s C15 on there then, and that was probably 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the biomarkers that they reported.
01;16;50;17 – 01;17;18;27
Dr. Venn-Watson
And they still offer that test. It’s a pretty fascinating, fat, fascinating test looking at that whole cell membrane. Whether you’re looking at our chain fatty acids or fatty acids, it was really cool to see that in our patients that are more complex, chronic inflammatory response patients are really working to repair cell membranes. It was very valuable to have and I noticed that, you know, that also has a test now that looks like just C15, right,
01;17;19;02 – 01;17;40;07
Synergee
right, right. So, right. So that, others offer the C15 test. Genova Diagnostics has it in their new travel panel. But not all of them. Quest doesn’t have C15 yet, so you have to look at I know we’ll get so but you have to look and make sure that C15 is included.
01;17;40;14 – 01;17;43;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
It’s really funny. You mentioned Kennedy Krieger. That’s who we used
01;17;44;02 – 01;18;06;25
Unknown
for all of the dolphin studies. And so we use them to measure the fatty acids. And because they were at the time, I don’t even think it was just luck that we ended up using them because at the time, C15 was not included in a lot of fatty acid panels, and had we not used them or a panel that included C15, this discovery would have never happened.
01;18;07;02 – 01;18;11;12
Synergee
Right? So it’s you just sometimes things just just turn out and, you know, let’s I could forgive my skepticism, but any time I read the title, you know, the longevity nutrient, right. We’re sold so much that’s going to affect one thing that’s going to fix everything. I had to really start digging in and say, okay, is there any validity to this? Like, how can one thing be so powerful?
01;18;31;15 – 01;18;51;14
Synergee
And it goes back to that cell membrane? If we have an unhealthy cell membrane, we can’t repair, we simply can’t get the nutrients in and can’t get the toxins out. And so it is pretty incredible what you guys have done in the way of the research. And then bridging it to humans. Right. And then having a product that can go to the consumer.
01;18;51;18 – 01;19;09;15
Dr. Venn-Watson
Thanks, Kelly. Yeah. It was really we brought in, you know, as we were going through this, as more and more discoveries were being made on C15. So yeah, now there’s over 100 peer reviewed papers, most of them not by us. Right. We we we, you know, we’re still doing the science, but certainly not all those papers.
01;19;10;16 – 01;19;39;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
There’s an average of about one paper coming out on C15 per week, over the last couple of years, including, you know, today. So as these studies started coming out, we brought in doctor Nick Schalk from the head of the NIH. Is Longevity Consortium, and he’s been in that role for over 20 years. And Nick was really compelled by the dolphin population because of the longitudinal data that we had on them.
01;19;40;02 – 01;19;53;13
Dr. Venn-Watson
And he said, I bet you’re going to show in the Dolphins what we’ve never what we’ve assumed in people, what we’ve never been able to show, which is that, people that individuals within the same population
01;19;53;15 – 01;20;07;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
age at different rates. And this sounds really simple, but our lives are so complicated. You know, it’s hard to say that. Is it because we smoke or drink or eat too much of a bad thing, or eat a lot of good things?
01;20;07;03 – 01;20;25;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
So the dolphins were this very relatively homogenous population where then we were able to go use this, you know, routine blood data, for hundreds of dolphins and able to show that, you know, dolphins aged at indeed had different dolphins age at different rates,
01;20;25;06 – 01;20;41;07
Dr. Venn-Watson
these red blood cell indices for some of the key indicators. And so once that started happening, Kelly, then Nick really started leaning in and said, you know, on C 15 and now we know that C15 targets key longevity pathways.
01;20;41;07 – 01;20;58;15
Dr. Venn-Watson
It activates Ampk and inhibits mTOR. It targets multiple hallmarks of aging. It stabilizes a cell membrane. And then we see the benefits of its role as a general protector. Right. Which Nick got all excited like this is going to be a geral protector. And like I appreciate your excitement.
01;20;58;18 – 01;21;02;09
Dr. Venn-Watson
What’s a data protection cycle? I don’t know what that is, Nick.
01;21;02;11 – 01;21;19;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
So, you know, he said it’s a molecule that can effectively slow the rate at which we age to stem the onset of the chronic diseases that kill us. I’m like, well, that sounds pretty important. And he was so excited because there are a lot of molecules out there, Kelly, like you’re sharing. That said, you know, this is for longevity and there’s a lot of hype around it.
01;21;23;09 – 01;21;59;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
But he said just, you know, just because you tap into a mechanism does not make it a longevity molecule or a nutrient, he said. It has to play out and be able to show benefits within certain people and meet these criteria. For Gerald Protector. So Nick, spoke among his peers, last year in Copenhagen at an anti-aging conference, and he said, bar none that of all the molecules that he has seen, nutrient or drug, he has not seen a single molecule have more supportive data than C15 in playing a core role as a foundation to our longevity.
01;22;02;19 – 01;22;18;23
Dr. Venn-Watson
So to have Nick say that that helped feed the boldness of the buck, of saying this isn’t getting us to live to 200, this is getting us to maximize our healthspan as long as possible, so that as individuals, we can live as long as possible.
01;22;18;25 – 01;22;25;18
Synergee
So powerful. How does it feel to be a part of that?
01;22;25;20 – 01;22;33;04
Dr. Venn-Watson
Oh my gosh, every day is a gift Lori. I don’t leave out like I’m sitting here getting choked up, feeling like it’s just it’s amazing. It’s amazing to think that.
01;22;33;04 – 01;22;42;02
Synergee
Before we even, you know, started recording, we were kind of talking about how important it is, for both Kelly and I, integrity is a big deal for us. We know that people listen to us.
01;22;42;02 – 01;23;08;05
Synergee
And, you know, there is a lot of hype out there around a lot of things, a lot of things. And, you know, we really have to be in it and discerning. And it’s certainly not perfect. Right? But we have to be insistent on having conversations just like this and scrutinizing the data that’s out there. So I love that there is this continuous data, and I love hearing that.
01;23;08;05 – 01;23;10;16
Dr. Venn-Watson
It is not you guys. It is
01;23;10;19 – 01;23;14;19
Unknown
other people doing it, which is. That’s amazing too,
01;23;14;26 – 01;23;24;21
Synergee
So I want to go back to diet because obviously a dolphin’s diet is very different from a human’s diet. Right. But we landed in the same place.
01;23;24;23 – 01;23;44;08
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right. Related. With the C15 deficiency or cell membrane fragility that is leading to chronic disease states. And we are finding that dairy is oftentimes very inflammatory for our patients, especially with autoimmune conditions like we’re testing it out. It’s not everyone that’s reactive to dairy, but a good bit of people are.
01;23;44;11 – 01;23;48;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
And so they pull dairy out of the diet because they’re limiting the dairy that they’re consuming.
01;23;48;27 – 01;24;01;09
Synergee
And so it can be a challenge to improve. So membrane health is what I’m hearing without this particular molecule. Are there any other ways to get C15 in the diet for humans?
01;24;01;11 – 01;24;15;07
Dr. Venn-Watson
Yeah, it’s a great question. So the dolphins taught us that, you know that fish we did look into the fish to say like where is the sea? We learned that specific types of fish have, some have C15, others have zero.
01;24;15;14 – 01;24;25;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
So it depends. It’s not for them. It’s not about just eating fish. It’s about eating the right types of fish. And in the fish, it’s primarily in the skin and the heads of the fish,
01;24;26;02 – 01;24;33;28
Dr. Venn-Watson
which is interesting because in Asian cultures, because the big question is like, well, a lot of Asian cultures don’t drink a lot of or eat a lot of dairy products, where are they getting their C15 from?
01;24;36;12 – 01;25;07;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
And those cultures actually were skin. And the heads of the fish traditionally have been a routine part of their diet. So there are some without having to eat the skin or that the heads of fish, they’re fatty fish, will have some source of C15 dairy fat, unfortunately, is such a reliable source for us, for for most people, for C15, that for a long time C15 has been used as a biomarker of how much dairy fat one eats.
01;25;07;20 – 01;25;32;07
Dr. Venn-Watson
Everyone. No one knew that it was a bioactive beneficial nutrient, but they knew that it was a reliable biomarker of dairy. So that means that even though there have been some studies looking at fish, there’s a great study that was done looking at, looking to explain how fiber helps and, mouse models of, fatty liver disease.
01;25;32;10 – 01;25;40;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
And they did a great series of studies, really fantastic series where they showed that when a mouse eats the fiber,
01;25;41;02 – 01;25;58;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
It uses the insulin in the fiber to feed microbes in the gut to make C15. So there and then that C 15 that’s made was what was responsible for the resolved liver condition in the, in the mice.
01;25;58;16 – 01;26;09;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
So it means that and there’s nobody who has no C15. Right. So it means that we have some level of production just not enough to get over that threshold of 0.2 percent.
01;26;09;27 – 01;26;23;04
Dr. Venn-Watson
So but and when we say like what recommendations eating fiber, it doesn’t hurt, right? It can help feed those microbes so that we can have some level of endogenous production.
01;26;23;06 – 01;26;59;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
We can from among dairy fat. If it’s coming from animals that were grass fed, there’s higher C15 content and milk. And that comes from grass fed, the most reliable dairy product with higher C15 that translates to health benefits is from cheese. So there’s a study showing that pregnant women, specifically cheese, had higher C15 in their red blood cells and in their breast milk, which then translated to better growth and development in the infant association.
01;26;59;17 – 01;27;06;09
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right? Not causation, but being able to show that the animal studies have shown causation in that.
01;27;06;11 – 01;27;38;03
Dr. Venn-Watson
So sometimes the fish have some fiber. Those are probably interestingly meat, red meat has a sizable amount of C15, but that does not translate. That does not translate to higher C15 in our circulation. And the hypothesis is that there’s just too many other fats and it’s competing and C15 doesn’t get absorbed, as well as it does from dairy thought.
01;27;38;05 – 01;28;03;10
Synergee
Interesting. So now we can supplement with C15. So what is the process to which the C15 goes from animal right to capsule to us. What is that process?
01;28;03;12 – 01;28;15;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
So we had the Navy come in and they were having a hard time finding that fish that had C15 in it, they had a different problem than we have, which is like, you know, for just assumed magically with regard to all these pro-inflammatory fats and dairy fat.
01;28;15;01 – 01;28;41;00
Dr. Venn-Watson
So we should get milk when we’re young. Every mammal does. So you should probably not question that part of evolution. But no other mammal continues to eat dairy when they’re older. So I still love my cheeses, so I still simply right. But the question is how do we solve for getting the good I chain, you know, foundational C15 nutrient without all of the pro-inflammatory one.
01;28;41;00 – 01;28;44;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
So the Office in Naval Research actually funded us
01;28;44;04 – 01;29;09;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
to develop this peer C15 ingredient and supplement for fatty 15 for humans. And the dolphins also get fatty 15 supplementation every day, which is so, so wonderful. So, because we’re able to, you know, have this good funding, we then use a plant based on C14 and we add carbon onto it.
01;29;09;21 – 01;29;24;11
Dr. Venn-Watson
So that way it can be vegan. So we don’t need to have it animal sourced, and have it be pure. So it’s developed, in a, in a pharma grade, way that allows it to be pure. And it’s the same
01;29;24;13 – 01;29;35;13
Dr. Venn-Watson
pure C15, free fatty acid molecule that’s readily bioavailable. And importantly, it’s the exact same molecule that’s used in all of these studies that I’ve talked about.
01;29;35;13 – 01;29;46;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
So, you know what you’re getting is exactly what’s been used throughout these studies, which is why we’re seeing such, great response, from patients and and from customers.
01;29;47;02 – 01;30;01;03
Synergee
And much of the research that I had originally read was based on, I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, the 300mg, is that correct? It’s a mix. So there’s one clinical trial that was with 200mg.
01;30;01;03 – 01;30;06;21
Synergee
Those were in young adults, with obesity and elevated liver enzymes.
01;30;06;24 – 01;30;46;09
Dr. Venn-Watson
They were chosen and they were that population was they were specifically, they were included if they were purposely avoiding dairy fat. And so, two out of three of those participants had what we defined as low C 15 levels. So below this, five micrograms per mil or 0.2%, for those who took the C 15 supplement because they were 18 to 24 year olds, those who adhered to the protocol and then got up and over that threshold of five micrograms per meal, at 200mg per day, saw a dramatic decrease in alt ast.
01;30;46;12 – 01;31;02;27
Dr. Venn-Watson
And then, interestingly, an increase in hemoglobin. We weren’t expecting that in such a young population. But we even saw that red blood cell improvement, even among young adults in the study, the worry that, yeah, you’re, talking about is, study day and then Singapore
01;31;03;00 – 01;31;17;21
Dr. Venn-Watson
women with a history of old fatty liver disease, and they give them 300mg per day of C 15, and they saw, lower LDL cholesterol increase growth of Bifidobacterium adolescents.
01;31;17;21 – 01;31;27;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
That was above and beyond. It was a really interesting study. Right. Because they were, the first group, they gave a low calorie hypochlorite diet.
01;31;27;21 – 01;31;41;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
The second they gave hypochlorite that was Mediterranean aligned, and the third was hyper caloric Mediterranean aligned, plus C 15 supplementation was like, it’s C 15 actually going to do better than eating a lower, you know, diet.
01;31;41;25 – 01;31;54;13
Dr. Venn-Watson
And the Mediterranean. That’s already two huge wins to help with fatty liver disease. And it was able to even, you know, get out across all of those wonderful benefits of the first two groups.
01;31;54;17 – 01;32;06;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
So the recommended dosage for the adult population will speak over the age of 18. And I love what you said about the young adults getting them disciplined and regimented to take something every day.
01;32;06;29 – 01;32;22;02
Synergee
So kudos to you for that. But what would be? Like what? What would you recommend? What is the science shown for the recommended dose for loading? Is loading necessary because that’s a question that I have to ask. And then what is the typical dose and for how long. What’s the duration?
01;32;22;05 – 01;32;35;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right. So the great thing about so I’ll start with the, the straightforward answer, which is that we need between 100 to 300mg of c 15 per day of added c 15 C 15 per day.
01;32;35;03 – 01;32;55;22
Dr. Venn-Watson
And that was whether we used to get it from whole fat milk when we used to drink, you know, two cups of whole fat milk in the 1950s. To today when, you know, now we’re getting it through other means and supplementation. The nice thing about being able to test your C 15 levels is it can help guide what it is that you need.
01;32;55;22 – 01;33;04;26
UnknownDr. Venn-Watson
So your goals are there. We kind of separate the goals of C 15 supplementation into two categories. The first is let’s not be deficient
01;33;05;04 – 01;33;17;15
Dr. Venn-Watson
right. So let’s not have disease because we don’t have enough C 15 in our cells. So no nutritional deficiencies. So to be able to get up and over that it depends upon of course where you start.
01;33;17;15 – 01;33;41;10
Dr. Venn-Watson
So we’ve seen vegans have C 15 levels of like 0.04.06. So they are a long way from that point 2%. And so Lori, like you’re talking about getting a loading dose in those may be like a 300mg dose to get them up and front loaded, if they’re your typical person that’s sitting at 0.2%, that’s the average person
01;33;41;15 – 01;33;51;16
Dr. Venn-Watson
is right on the edge of cellular fragility syndrome, reminding people that just because 0.2% is in the middle does not mean that that is healthy.
01;33;51;16 – 01;34;17;21
Dr. Venn-Watson
As a population, the whole curve has shifted, so you need to get them away kind of further off the CR, off the ledge. So 100 to 200 can help to not be deficient. Now if you want to optimize, we can talk about the Sardinian zone. Right. So Sardinians have a high longevity zone, they have C 15 levels that are, 2 to 3 times higher than the average population.
01;34;17;26 – 01;34;20;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
They’re point four to point 6%.
01;34;20;17 – 01;34;39;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
And so they do that because they’ve got tons of locally local sheaves and goats. They feed on mountainous grass. That combination results. And then they eat it as cheese. Their milk is cheese as pecorino as many of us know it, one of the highest C 15 levels. And they eat. They’ve replaced their meat with cheese.
01;34;39;16 – 01;34;47;10
Dr. Venn-Watson
And it has this high C 15 cheese. So that has allowed them to get these high levels. It’s really hard for us to get to those optimal levels.
01;34;47;13 – 01;35;02;23
Dr. Venn-Watson
Studies have shown not just the, you know, people living longer in Sardinia, but consistently showing that the higher for every point, 1% increase in C 15, the risk of developing type two diabetes is decreased by a whopping 38%.
01;35;02;23 – 01;35;21;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
And it’s a large prospective, dose dependent meta analysis that just came out a couple of months ago. When you the higher and C 15, the lower the risk of developing type two diabetes, as well as a separate paper showing the same thing for cardiovascular disease. So we call that the optimal zone
01;35;21;27 – 01;35;27;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
or we call it this longevity zone of this point 4 to 0.6%, based on those studies.
01;35;27;24 – 01;35;38;11
Dr. Venn-Watsonn
So that then is probably going to be more of your 150 to 300, you know, milligram, 200 to 300 gram, dosing.
01;35;38;12 – 01;35;44;15
Synergee
Is there a reason to consider not using C 15
01;35;44;18 – 01;35;51;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
That’s a good question. We haven’t found one yet. And I think it’s because, you know, a couple of things. One is, you know, it’s in breast milk.
01;35;52;01 – 01;35;56;19
Synergee
So it really is a foundational nutrient that we all need.
01;35;56;22 – 01;36;14;00
Dr. Venn-Watson
The doses that we’re talking about are not like this, you know, we’re offering a supplement that’s 100 times more than you could ever possibly get, ever, that your body was ever meant to see. We’re talking about how to restore and optimize within levels that of where we should be.
01;36;14;02 – 01;36;33;04
Dr. Venn-Watson
So I think for those reasons or that’s why we haven’t seen it, it’s been extensively tested, for safety. That was our number one requirement before we even thought of bringing it to market. And so it’s grass and and now, it’s been, you know, hundreds of thousands of,
01;36;33;07 – 01;36;37;11
Dr. Venn-Watson
of customers and, and once they start on fatty 15 where they stay.
01;36;37;11 – 01;36;54;22
Dr. Venn-Watson
So we have a 95% monthly retention rate, and people are feeling better. Yeah. Yeah. I know we often talk about, you know, supplements filling in those nutritional gaps. And, you know, a lot of times there are so many gaps in one’s nutrition that they land with this very long list of
01;36;54;24 – 01;37;07;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
important things to supplement with. And we’re always you know, asked the question of is this something that is necessary, foundational.
01;37;07;04 – 01;37;21;06
Dr. Venn-Watson
How long will I need to be on it? So there’s some critical conversations happening at every visit. And I have recently been talking more about, of course, cell membrane and not just omega threes, but the use of fatty 15.
01;37;21;13 – 01;37;32;28
Synergee
And so I love what you know, I love what you just said. I think that it it makes sense to prioritize something that we are not really getting in our diet.
01;37;33;01 – 01;37;45;07
Synergee
And now that we have the ability to test for it. Test. Don’t guess. I think that’s going to be very helpful to the conversation. Right? So it’s not just that I recommend this. No. Look, here’s where your levels are.
01;37;45;09 – 01;37;58;17
Dr. Venn-Watson
So exactly. Yeah. We should be moving beyond the days of just, you know, crossing our fingers and hoping and praying that it works, you know, that’s a big reason why, you know, again, Doctor Schalk was so excited about C15.
01;37;58;18 – 01;38;19;23
Dr. Venn-Watson
He’s like, you can measure it’s not just a biomarker. It’s the intervention and the effect that it has with regard to red blood cells with regard to, you know, improving glucose control of helping with liver conditions, you know, and slowing these measurements of biological aging. These are all tests that are readily available.
01;38;19;23 – 01;38;36;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
So it doesn’t it doesn’t it’s not hiding behind some fancy mechanism that’s like, don’t worry, you don’t need to understand it. Just take it. It’s like, no, it really needs to work. And it needs to have our health care practitioners, you know, use it with confidence. Look at it skeptically, Kelly, like you’re saying. And
01;38;36;21 – 01;38;40;14
Dr. Venn-Watson
then be able to, you know, see the positive impact it has on patients in functional medicine in Ridgeland MS.
01;38;40;17 – 01;38;55;12
Synergee
Yeah. And so with that being said, is there a particular time of day. Is there a particular combination? Is it better taken with fats not. Are there some helpful tips that you can give our listeners on how to take it to get the best outcome?
01;38;55;14 – 01;39;01;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
Right? So most people take them in the morning. And I’m not sure if that’s because that’s better or not.
01;39;01;29 – 01;39;31;24
Dr. Venn-Watson
That’s just become part of their habit. Impressively, 99% of our customers have a survey of 6000 customers. 99% said it’s part of their daily routine. And so it’s easy to take because it’s a small, teeny, tiny, small pill. No taste, no smell. And I personally, I take it in the morning because, you know, you were taking C 15 fatty 15 for the long term cardiometabolic, liver and immune benefits, but it does have an added benefit of it.
01;39;31;24 – 01;39;35;00
Dr. Venn-Watson
There are two mechanisms that we fat
01;39;35;02 – 01;39;58;15
Dr. Venn-Watson
and it inhibits FH and inhibits mobi. And by doing so it actually helps boost, endocannabinoids and dope and so when I take them earlier in the morning that I get to enjoy, you know, for the next 4 to 6 hours and through the day, it helps me with as far as being calm and having, you know, a good mindset.
01;39;58;15 – 01;40;21;12
Dr. Venn-Watson
And it’s still, it helps me, I sleep better. I used to roam the halls at two in the morning. And so it’s been helping me with sleep. That’s one of the most common kinds of delight and surprise benefit. Even when I take it in the morning, it’s still, I think it’s just helping with the circadian rhythm and getting, you know, homeostasis with regard to how our bodies are supposed to be working.
01;40;21;19 – 01;40;27;14
Synergee
I want to go back to something you said earlier about the RDA for fatty 15 or C 15.
01;40;27;18 – 01;40;29;03
Synergee
And it made me think about vitamin
01;40;29;07 – 01;40;42;23
Synergee
D. You know, we have a standard for rickets, right. And I’m wondering if cellular fertility is going to be part of that same conversation. You know, you might need this much to prevent rickets, but you need this much for health optimization.
01;40;42;26 – 01;40;53;06
Synergee
So how far away do you think we are from having conversations like that? And for it to be part of the conversation, like not a foreign conversation, to be talking about cellular health?
01;40;53;09 – 01;40;59;13
Dr. Venn-Watson
Well, you just made it happen, Kelly. We just did. This is great. Yeah. I mean, you’re spot on in functional medicine in Ridgeland MS.
01;40;59;13 – 01;41;05;15
Dr. Venn-Watson
It’s exactly that. So it’s it’s being able to introduce exactly what you just described that
01;41;05;22 – 01;41;24;02
Dr. Venn-Watson
We really are looking at deficiency syndrome. You know, we put the paper out there again and a second group reconfirmed that, you know, that it’s feeding into these fragile cells. We know that in 2012, Columbia University scientists discovered an entirely new way that our cells were dying.
01;41;24;04 – 01;41;43;01
Dr. Venn-Watson
They called it for ptosis. And the way they describe it is that fragile fatty acids in the cell membrane lead to lipid oxidation and to this, entirely new form of cell that so what we learned was that the dolphins actually taught us what was causing ptosis. I mean, since that discovery of cell, that
01;41;43;04 – 01;41;54;10
Dr. Venn-Watson
20,000 papers have been written on fat ptosis since 2012 and everyone’s like, well, we know it accelerates aging and accelerates the onset of type two diabetes and heart disease and cognitive decline.
01;41;54;12 – 01;42;19;23
Dr. Venn-Watson
But nobody could explain where it came from. And so now we’re understanding, exactly, Kelly, that it’s increasingly the studies increasingly supporting that C 15 deficiencies are driving this new form of cell death, which then, you know, we are confident will become part of the conversation of wow. Oh it was a c 15 deficiency just like vitamin D and rickets.
01;42;19;23 – 01;42;41;29
Dr. Venn-Watson
Vitamin D and scurvy will be, you know, C 15 and for ptosis. So, you know, we’ll keep working with the scientific community wonderfully. They’re also often running on their own. But it’s for folks that are especially working with kids, and fatty liver disease and seeing hypertension and seeing aging related diseases showing up in younger and younger people.
01;42;42;21 – 01;43;03;18
Dr. Venn-Watson
They’re also the ones on the forefront that are pushing this because they say, I’m seeing this be fixable, and we have to bring this to the forefront because we can’t afford to wait because this is a safe molecule. This is an easy thing that we can test, and we should absolutely be paying more attention to it. And you know, do what we’ve always done, which is follow the data.
01;43;03;21 – 01;43;08;02
Synergee
So I want to thank you for being here and thank you for your contribution to the world.
01;43;08;02 – 01;43;13;11
Synergee
Really I mean, this is a big deal. And I noticed that you’re going to be speaking for a forum in April
01;43;13;15 – 01;43;14;06
Dr. Venn-Watson
That’s right.
01;43;14;06 – 01;43;27;13
Synergee
Speaking on just the topic you were talking about, which I had not heard until I read it in your book. And so, thank you for spreading the word to clinicians like us. Thank you for being here for our listeners today.
01;43;27;15 – 01;43;32;02
Synergee
Because this is such an important conversation. And, you know, nutrition is so foundational.
01;43;32;05 – 01;43;46;09
Synergee
But if we can’t get the nutrients that we’re eating into the cell and have them do their job, then we’re not making a lot of progress. You know, we may be keeping them at a certain level and keeping certain things at bay, but we can’t really see that health optimization that you’ve been talking about.
01;43;46;14 – 01;43;47;14
Synergee
So thank you.
01;43;47;16 – 01;43;53;28
Dr. Venn-Watson
Well, thank you both for this opportunity. And while you’ve just joined the movement. So welcome aboard.
01;43;54;01 – 01;44;06;23
Synergee
have some links in our show notes for a code for fatty 15 for our listener. So that’ll be in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to share that you guys are putting out there or anything else?
01;44;06;26 – 01;44;07;21
Synergee
For our listeners
01;44;07;21 – 01;44;27;05
Dr. Venn-Watson
I would say, all of the peer reviewed science is coming out on Si 15. Is available at discover C 15.com. So we can make sure that you can put that in your show notes, and that, very soon we will be coming out with fatty 15 gummies for adults and kids.
01;44;27;07 – 01;44;42;26
Dr. Venn-Watson
So stay tuned for those who are gummy folks, just mixing them up throughout the day. So, but, we’re excited to be able to get, it’s really based upon demand from parents that saying, I really want my children to be able to
01;44;42;29 – 01;44;46;28
Dr. Venn-Watson
get their C 15. So we’re excited to be able to come out with that in functional medicine in Ridgeland MS.
01;44;47;03 – 01;44;54;04
Dr. Venn-Watson
I think some people have that fatigue and yes, that’s right. And they can take it as a gummy. It seems more like a food
01;44;54;06 – 01;44;56;25
Dr. Venn-Watson
than taking medicine or a supplement.
01;44;56;25 – 01;44;58;20
Dr. Venn-Watson
So I think that’ll be a big hit.
01;44;58;23 – 01;45;07;24
Synergee
And if we can be part of the movement to getting labs, more labs, testing for C 15, reach out to us.
01;45;07;24 – 01;45;27;20
Dr. Venn-Watson
I use a ton of Cleveland Heart Lab quests and would love for it to be part of their panel. So if there’s anything we can do to help with that, we would love to. Oh, Lori, I’m taking you up on that right now. So yeah, absolutely. I’ll follow up. Follow up. Okay. Wonderful. Because to me that means a lot.
01;45;27;21 – 01;45;54;28
Synergee
That’s great. We need it more available because we do. We talk about the data. Data drives decisions. And we’re already doing these wonderful studies on multiple biomarkers. But that one’s not there yet. So next on the docket. All right. That’s right. Stick. Well, thank you so much. You were such a pleasure talking with both of you about integrative health in Ridgeland MS.
01;45;55;01 – 01;46;21;07
Synergee
The Synergee Podcast is for integrative health in Ridgeland MS and general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice and no doctor patient relationship is formed. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have, and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.
